Talk:Order of the Arrow

Order of the Arrow has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
February 22, 2009	Good article nominee	Listed

This subarticle is kept separate from the main article, Scouting America, due to size or style considerations.

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Frequently asked questions

Q1: Are the ceremonies a secret?

A1: No, Scouting America describes their ceremonies as "safeguarded", which they define very differently. In the past, Arrowmen were admonished to keep these details secret, but in the 1980s, Scouting America introduced new Youth Protection program policies which include:

Scouting America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.
"Guide to Safe Scouting: Youth Protection & Adult Leadership". Boy Scouts of America. Retrieved 2008-11-07.

Scouting America has made clear that any legitimately concerned person may view videos of ceremonies, attend meetings, or read scripts upon request to assure themselves that there is nothing objectionable. Such persons are asked to safeguard the details relating to ceremonies for the sake of the participants.

The Order of the Arrow, recognizing the attractiveness of the unknown, utilizes the form of mystery. This shall not be interpreted, however, as justifying the withholding of any information regarding the Order from any person legitimately interested in investigating its nature, purpose, or method. Nothing in the Order shall be interpreted as interfering with any member's religious obligation. If anyone has questions about this policy, or about the Order of the Arrow, they should contact their local Scout Council or Lodge Adviser.
"Safeguarded Material". Boy Scouts of America. Retrieved 2008-11-07.^{[dead link]}

If after discussing the ceremony with the lodge advisor, the parent, Scout leader or religious leader continues to have questions about the content of the ceremony, that person will be permitted to read the ceremony text and view the Ordeal's ceremony training DVD. Following this, parents will be in a position to decide whether to allow their son to participate in the ceremony. Nonmembers should not attend the ceremonies.
Order of the Arrow Handbook. Boy Scouts of America. 2008.

Much information is now publicly available from Scouting America; for example, information on the Ordeal induction is available on the Scouting America website and in other Scouting and OA publications.

"Order of the Arrow". Boy Scouts of America. Retrieved 2010-06-24.^{[dead link]}

Davis, Kenneth P (1990). The Brotherhood of Cheerful Service: A History of the Order of the Arrow. Irving, TX: Boy Scouts of America. ISBN 0839549989.

Q2: What if I want to add content that is considered to be safeguarded?

A2:
Safeguarded material should not be added to the article simply to shock or disrupt. All content must add value to the article regardless of its status as well as meeting the standards of verifiability and notability. Discussion of potentially objectionable content should not focus on whether or not it is safeguarded, but on whether it is appropriate to include in the article.

Q3: Are the official publications secret?

A3: No. Scouting America will sell The Order of the Arrow Handbook to anyone, although some council Scout Shops may still believe it is a restricted item. Current and old versions of the handbook are readily available elsewhere. When adding content, care must be taken to use the current versions of publications.

Q4: Can I publish the passwords to protected content?

A4: No. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act prohibits the act of circumventing any access control. The English Wikipedia operates under the laws of the United States and the state of Florida. It is unlikely that any website we could link to legitimately would protect their content with a password.

Q5: Can I link to copyrighted publications posted on a website?

A5:

No. We cannot link to illegally published material. Only websites operated by the National Council of Scouting America are allowed to publish Scouting America copyrighted material. Council, district and other sites that are publishing such copyrighted material are in violation of Scouting America's copyright policies.

"Local Council Web site Guidelines". Boy Scouts of America. Retrieved 2010-02-11.^{[dead link]}

External links to content that violates copyrights may be considered contributory infringement.

Q6: Are editors who are members of the OA in conflict of interest?

A6:

Only when they violate the core of the conflict of interest guideline:

Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, that editor stands in a conflict of interest.

Regular editors who are Arrowmen have voluntarily disclosed their association on their userpages and on the talk page of this article.

Q7: What about the lyrics to The Order of the Arrow Song?

A7:
The song was written by E. Urner Goodman who died in 1980. It has been continuously published in The Order of the Arrow Handbook, a copyrighted publication. The earliest the copyright would expire is 70 years after the death of the author: 2050. How much of the song could or should be included is open to interpretation, especially given the short length.

Scouting High‑importance

	Scouting portal Order of the Arrow is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ScoutingWikipedia:WikiProject ScoutingTemplate:WikiProject ScoutingScouting
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
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Organizations

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Organizations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Organizations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OrganizationsWikipedia:WikiProject OrganizationsTemplate:WikiProject Organizationsorganization
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Dubious claims re "Previously Known As"

This page needs a reference to where and when that name was changed. That is not an official change that has been communicated to active users. (talk) 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Age Range

Moved from User talk:Meamemg § Order of the Arrow age range revision

– More appropriate location is the articles talk page than my personal one meamemg (talk) 20:49, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You reverted my addition regarding 18-20 year-old Scouts noting "no need to split". As noted in the citation, that age group is unique in that they are treated as youth for OA program purposes, but adult for Scouting America policy purposes. That seems noteworthy. Please consider undoing your revision. Delmont43 (talk) Delmont43 (talk) 20:32, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That page lists that for OA purposes youth are through 20 and adult is over, so if anything would say they aren't separate. "For Order of the Arrow participation (events, elections, etc.), a youth is anyone under age 21. Adults are those 21 or older." The nuance about housing status seems too minor to be worth including in the infobox, and regardless, the edit you made didn't list the difference. But if you disagree, I'd recommend starting a conversation on the article's talk page. meamemg (talk) 20:36, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a "nuance" that in a youth program, the national officers can be adults by Scouting America definitions. If this distinction is not worthy of an infobox, then I would submit that the age range entry isn't either. I would recommend you revert your change and start a discussion on the article's talk page. Delmont43 (talk) Delmont43 (talk) 20:42, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussions like this generally should happen on the articles talk page, not my personal one, so I've moved it there. @Delmont43 . meamemg (talk) 20:49, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Wimachtendienk Wingolauchsik Witahemui (WWW) in lead paragraph

The lead paragraph currently makes no mention of the previous name of the Order of the Arrow, Wimachtendienk Wingolauchsik Witahemui (WWW). This is because the name was changed (to the Order of the Arrow) more than a hundred years ago in 1924. While there is still some use of the old name, such as on lodge flaps, it is not broadly recognized. Since an edit recently added WWW into the lead paragraph I thought I’d seek other opinions on this topic. Compass128 (talk) 22:03, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Section on “Sash and Dash”

Sash and Dash is occasionally used organizational jargon. Recently, edits have been made to add this term, as well as some information on it, to the article. The sources have quite literally no info and most of the content seems to be coming from the editors themselves. I don’t think the information is relevant and have removed it pending other opinions. At the very least there needs to be stronger sources and perhaps the section could be renamed “Membership Issues” or something similar. Compass128 (talk) 22:11, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sash and Dash should be mentioned as OA itself recognizes the issue. Jargon or not, OA mentions it on several pages including in the title of a syllabus:

https://oa-scouting.org/training/syllabi/la300-issues-sash-and-dash

https://oa-scouting.org/resources/ucl-support/lodge-ideas/best-practices

https://oa-scouting.org/resources/ucl-support/lodge-ideas/best-practices/dues-pin

https://oa-scouting.org/article/lodge-ledger-oa-and-unit-our-keys-future

https://oa-scouting.org/article/lodge-ledger-first-year-pin-program-retains-arrowmen-kansa-lodge

OA recognizes the problem, and I was explaining what Sash and Dash is for the general population.

Let's be honest here: many of the scouts and scouters who go through the ordeal will not be involved beyond that. They will not attend lodge events or volunteer within OA. However, they will gladly wear the lodge patch and sash during ceremonies. It should be mentioned to give it a balanced view. OA is great but is not all perfect and has had its share of criticism. Instead of removing the entire section, why not fix what I did wrong? It comes across as you trying to silence a legitimate issue with OA membership. Blazing Liberty (talk) 11:19, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with most of what North8000 was getting at, that there is some good information and some that is clearly subjective. I also agree with Blazing Liberty that there is a problem with membership, which is why I requested comments. My point was that the section should be neutral coverage of the organization’s struggle with member retention, and that it should be phrased as such, instead of using “Sash and Dash” in the title. I would love some external citations but that might be too much as the topic is mostly covered within the OA. Compass128 (talk) 18:14, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

IMO even the "sash and dash" term is OK, but the emphasis on the non-participants wearing the patch/sash (which implies what I described under #2) is what I'd leave out. North8000 (talk) 18:53, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see two very different things blended together here:

The fact that many who get inducted never go further or participate after that. And efforts to change that. I think that this is well sourced and should be covered.
A point of view by some that there is somehow high value in wearing the patch/sash and that people who don't participate after induction are unfairly cashing in on this high value without participating. I don't think that this is well sourced or useful. IMO this should be left out.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:26, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Sash and Dash issue clearly stems from the fact that OA membership comes with displayable prestige on the uniform. There would be no point in being in OA and not take part in activities if there was no patches and/or sash.

We may not have official sources, so we don't have to put that in the article. But deleting it all is going a little far. So let pit it back and find a way to explain it without the patch issue? Blazing Liberty (talk) 19:46, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Based on too many decades of experience, I don't agree with your analysis, IMO the common issue (including the one in the sources and the organizational efforts) is getting inducted and then doing nothing after that. And most of those don't even wear the patch or sash. But we don't have to debate that.....just overall go by what's in the sources. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:21, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, regardless of any personal experiences the sources seem to describe Sash and Dash solely as a retention problem. IMO we should add the information that can be cited (i.e., the problem, its nickname, and steps taken to address it) either in the Membership section or a separate one titled “Retention issues”. Compass128 (talk) 21:35, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2025

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

NLATS doesnt exist anymore, replace NLATS with DYLC (Developing Youth Leadership Conference) D3vSilv3r (talk) 13:43, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. PianoDan (talk) 15:38, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]